Balancing Authentic Video Content and Production Quality

Gil Rogers sits down with fellow podcast host and video expert, John Azoni, to discuss impactful ways for using video to support student recruitment and marketing.

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Who is John Azoni?

John is the Executive Producer at Unveild and host of the Higher Ed Storytelling University podcast.

In this Episode

John Azoni, executive producer at Unveild and host of the Higher Ed Storytelling University podcast, joins FYI host Gil Rogers to talk about the power of video in higher education. They delve into the nuances of creating engaging, authentic video content to connect with students and alumni. 

John shares insights from his journey, strategies for effective video production, and tackles the challenge of avoiding cringe-worthy content. The conversation covers various video formats, from TikToks to long-form narratives, and stresses the importance of genuine storytelling in your higher-ed marketing efforts.

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Episode Transcript

Balancing Authentic Video Content and Production Quality with John Azoni

Publishing Date: September 24, 2024

[00:00:00] Gil: Welcome back to FYI, the For Your Institution Podcast, presented by Mongoose. I’m your host, Gil Rogers. And today, I talked to John Azoni, Executive Producer at UNVEILD and host of the Higher Ed Storytelling University Podcast. We talk about video and how to make it work in higher ed. Let’s listen in.

Hey, John, how are you? How’s life treating ya?

[00:00:32] John: Pretty good. Summertime. Can’t complain.

[00:00:34] Gil: Where are you based?

[00:00:35] John: Michigan, the Detroit area.

[00:00:37] Gil: Okay, got it. Awesome. My dog’s in the background saying hello at some point.

[00:00:41] John: Oh, okay. What kind of dog is that?

[00:00:43] Gil: I just put her… she’s a goldendoodle. Just put a little, her little dog mattress down. It’s an old baby crib mattress that we have yet to get rid of. So, she gets to sleep on it.

[00:00:51] John: Yeah, we have a goldendoodle as well.

[00:00:54] Gil: Nice!

[00:00:54] John: A mini one.

[00:00:55] Gil: Oh, fun.

[00:00:57] John: I was interviewing Ethan Braden from Texas A&M on my podcast when we first got our puppy because she’s pretty young and had to have her in my lap the whole time because she just wouldn’t stop whining in my office.

[00:01:11] Gil: That makes for a great YouTube version content because then you got the dog sitting there and it’s just great. It’s good. I remember one of the times, and this is a great video topic, is during COVID, one of the VPs of enrollment that we were working with, he was doing an information session and, like, the highlight of it all was his dog started barking and stuff and came into the frame. And all the students were like, “We want to see your dog. Can you show us your dog?” And it just, like, it personalized the experience for everybody, right?

[00:01:38] John: Yeah. Awesome.

[00:01:40] Gil: Yeah, good times. Weather’s lovely here in Maine. How is it in Michigan today?

[00:01:44] John: It’s a nice, you know, 80-degree day here in Michigan, you know. We, we live for Michigan summers because we feel like we earned it the rest of the year.

[00:01:54] Gil: Great. We’ll, we’ll make sure we drop this episode in, like, February, just to make sure that you get to listen back and remember how lovely the weather was, and then where you’re just going to be so mad. And so, I’m saying thanks for some great outdoor sports in the winter, though, right, ice skating or any of that kind of stuff.

[00:02:12] John: Yeah, I try. Every year, I’m like, I need to get, like, find a sport or something or just something I could do with my kids that, like, we look forward to doing in the winter. I have yet to, like, really land on anything. We go sledding and stuff like that, but, you know, the winter’s just little bit dead. We don’t like ski or snowboard or anything. So, if we did that, that might fix it, but, you know…

[00:02:32] Gil: Depending on the size of your yard, I am a mean backyard ice rink builder.

[00:02:38] John: Oh, gosh.

[00:02:39] Gil: And it’s not too difficult. All you need is, like, a one-foot-high piece of plywood and, like, some thick plastic, and then just pour some water in it. And there you go. You don’t need to dig holes in your yard or anything like that. I’ll send you some plans. Maybe that’ll give you something to do to get the kids skating and then they get into hockey and then you get to start paying for hockey, which is always fun, not the cheapest thing to be working on.

[00:02:59] John: Yeah. My, my wife tried to get me to build a skating rink in our backyard a couple of years ago. And I’m like, we live right across the street from a lake. Why? I mean, that’s just like a professional skating. I’m like, “Why do we need one?” Like, what, are we too lazy to walk across the street? Why do I get to build one in our backyard?

[00:03:16] Gil: You just need good timing and a shovel, right? The hardest part about those is maintenance because then you get, like, the town skating on it and everybody, and then you got to clean it eventually. We actually had a pond near our house at our old house. And there was a kid that went out with a shovel and shoveled out, basically, a full ice rink. And then he went to go get friends. And when he came back, all the little kids in the town were all skating on the rink, then he was bummed out because he’s like, “I wanted to play hockey with my friends.” I was like, “Should have planned better. Should have brought him with you.” And then it went into the thing.

But I digress. I digress. We’re here to talk video. You’re an expert in this space. I think there’s a lot of opportunity for people to learn, kind of, talk about strategy. There’s lots of change, a lot stayed the same. I know, a number of months back, I had a guest on that was talking about how institutions just need to give up on video, because it’s too cringe. And I love the word, the fact that we use the word “cringe” and “suss” in that podcast.

[00:04:08] John: Cringe and suss, there you go.

[00:04:10] Gil: Before we hop in, though, I’d love to hear from you a little bit, for our listeners that might not have met you yet. We know you’re from Michigan. How’d you get to where you are? Why do you do what you do? What’s your background? A quick intro of John.

[00:04:24] John: Yeah, sure. So, I mean, my background is actually in fine arts, so I went to school, studied painting, mostly, like, abstract and portrait painting. And then, you know, thought I was going to do, like, the whole gallery scene and all that. And then ended up stumbling into a job in nonprofits, did that for a couple of years. And that’s where I started to realize how much I really liked storytelling and, like, content creation, because we were working with the unhoused population in Detroit. That’s the new word. Back in 2007, we would just say we were working with the homeless. But now, we’ve evolved to say the unhoused population. You know, we were supposed to get them employed and housed and stuff like that. And we were doing that, but I was, like, really drawn to the storytelling aspect and just the human aspect and learning about where they came from and updating funders and stuff like that.

And so, eventually left there, stumbled into a job in video production at my buddy’s company and stayed there for about 11 years. And in that time, we did a fair amount of higher ed work, and I really gravitated towards the potential in higher ed for storytelling, just with a lot of golden opportunities for one-to-one personal stories. So, I left there in 2021 and started my company, UNVEILD, decided to just niche down and go all in on higher ed and specifically created a subscription model for student alumni stories, success stories.

And so, that’s the whole focus of my business. But I also am just really interested in video for higher ed, in general, and TikToks and reels and all the short-form videos, all the other possibilities of video for higher ed, outside of just the student and alumni testimonials. And so, yeah, that’s how I got into higher ed and video work a little bit.

[00:06:04] Gil: Yeah, and I think, and what’s interesting is this video clearly isn’t new, right? It’s been a part of the process for student engagement forever, as long as long as video has existed. I remember, back in the day, an institution I worked at, they had a VHS tape that they would send to high schools with a return address envelope. Instead of sending a visitor, they would send the VHS tape so that students who wanted to learn about the school could watch the video about the school. And then the guidance office would have to put it back, be kind, rewind, put it in, send it back, right.

And that sounds crazy, but that wasn’t that long ago, but it is that long ago. And then we had, you know, the challenge with higher education, particularly in enrollment and admissions with video, is that the preference of the team, the staff, the office, is in-person, right, in many respects, right? They want to be in front of people because you get the immediate feedback of, if you’re presenting to a group, virtually, you don’t get to see their faces and smiles and laughs. When you’re in an auditorium, you get to, kind of, feed off the crowd, right?

And so, during COVID, that was, kind of, one of the biggest challenges with, like, live virtual content, was getting that comfort level. You have people who are, you know, you put them in an auditorium with 3,000 people, they’re totally fine. You put them in front of a camera and they freeze up and they don’t know what they’re doing, right?

[00:07:21] John: Yeah.

[00:07:21] Gil: And so, as someone with an expertise in this space, what are some of the things that you do to help people get comfortable with being in front of a camera or being part of that production so that they’re… and we can talk strategy and distribution and all that stuff, but I think that’s one of the big hangups for a lot of people even now, is, right, the first opportunity that they had to go back to a high school visit or host college fairs or get in front of people, these in-person experiences. It was like, “Yeah, let’s do it.”

We hated college fairs before COVID but college fairs are better than virtual college fairs, right?

[00:07:50] John: Yeah.

[00:07:50] Gil: And so, there’s a challenge there for, kind of, to overcome that. So, what do you do to help people get comfortable with video?

[00:07:56] John: Yeah, a lot of my work is, like, very interview-based. So, I like documentary style. And so, the videos that we do at UNVEILD are very much like sit down with one person, do an interview, usually for about an hour, and then film B-roll that goes with that and all of that.

So, a couple parts of our process that are important. Number one is a pre-interview. And so, we, whoever’s directing, whether it’s me or one of my other directors, we’ll talk to the subject ahead of time virtually and just have a casual conversation and, kind of, run them through some of the interview questions, just to get a broad overview of what their story is like, and looking for any, sort of, like, emotion or novel angles that we can approach this from. So, that alone builds rapport and, kind of, helps them feel comfortable. They’re not meeting me or someone else for the first time with a camera in their face.

And then the other thing that I prep my subjects with is to tell them, you know, your job is just to talk. Feel free to ramble. In fact, I prefer that you ramble, because I think the big fear is, like, they’re going to be inarticulate and they’re going to just ramble and not really know… they’re not going to say some, like, banger soundbite, or whatever. You know, all their thoughts aren’t going to be totally corralled and pristine and stuff like that.

And I just give them permission upfront and say, “That’s actually what we want. Like, we want you to just talk. You can be articulate. But really, our job in the editing process is to make you sound articulate. That’s the whole job of editing.”

So, I think that, like, really helps let their guard down a lot. And so, I rarely have a problem with people feeling too nervous. I have had one, it’s been a really long time, where someone was just so nervous they couldn’t handle it. I was working with that, my old job, I was working with a church, and they had one of their leadership they wanted on camera, and she was so nervous. She could not… she just couldn’t do it. Like, she was, like, sweating. She was giving us, like, one- or two-word answers, and then we just couldn’t use it. I mean, but it’s so rare that someone has such a hard time.

But, like, it is important to, like, acclimate them to the fact that this isn’t a TED Talk where, like, everything you say is going to be displayed verbatim. So, you have to say it really articulate and eloquently. So, yeah, I think that’s a big part of it.

The other part, too, is, like, I see a lot of video content that’s read off a teleprompter. And I think that that’s really, that’s a tough setup, I think, for a lot of people. It takes a special skill to be able to read something without sounding like you’re reading. And I think that a lot of people will default to that because they’re like, “Well, I can read. And so, if all I have to do is read, then I’ll be successful.” But oftentimes, it sounds so scripted. So, you know, you’re trying to get them to feel comfortable enough to go off script and stuff like that. So, there… I mean, there are strategies and stuff like that, but yeah, I think, sometimes people are just, something about it, just putting… turn on a camera, people just get so in their heads about it.

[00:10:48] Gil: Yeah. And I think it’s similar to podcasting, in a way. Now, obviously, a lot of podcasts like this one have a video element to it as well. So, it’s being comfortable on video. And I also feel like, to your point, people are more comfortable now than they were a few years ago with being on video. I think COVID definitely “aided” in that effort.

[00:11:08] John: Yeah.

[00:11:08] Gil: People are on Zoom all the time, right? So, they’re already talking on a camera. They’re already dealing with that stuff. And your point around being scripted, I think it’s just like reading a PowerPoint when you’re doing an in-person presentation, right? Like, if you have a lot of words in your slides and you’re reliant on your slides, you look at your slides and you’re not talking to the audience. And then you create this bad presentation. And so, that’s… it does take a special skill to, kind of, read from a teleprompter. And that’s, and that, for most folks, they don’t do that every day. So, it’s something that you would need to practice and work on versus being authentic.

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[00:12:26] Gil: I feel like, especially in higher education, the less scripted the video content and you work on good editing, the better, because that’s what leads us to the cringe conversation, right? It’s like, is forever, we’ve been told, and we say, and we hear that students want authentic content, but they also don’t want crappy content, right?

[00:12:45] John: Yeah.

[00:12:45] Gil: And so, how does an institution, kind of, thread that needle of having the authentic voice that’s not scripted, but also not like crappy iPhone video, dropping on the floor, not having a good representative? Because then you got to tie in that balance of representing the institution’s brand, right, and making sure that brand isn’t tied to for-production value.

So, how do you make that Venn diagram work, John, before you toss it all together with good content that’s authentic and not crappy?

[00:13:16] John: Yeah. I mean, “authenticity” is such a broad word, and we hear that a lot. Like, we’re supposed to be authentic. And it’s tough to know what that means and how to apply it. But I really just think that, like, having your college president reading some pseudo inspiring script off of a teleprompter is not authentic. I mean, I’ve seen that a lot in college YouTube pages of, like, they’re trying to use the president as, sort of, like, the front facing marketing tool. And I’m like, “This is not it. Like, these students are not going to connect with this guy or gal, especially if you’re just reading.”

The other stuff that I hate to see is, like, I think inauthenticity comes into play a lot when there’s a script. When there’s a script that’s… when they’re… it’s obvious that the person on camera doesn’t believe what they’re saying. And that, kind of, drives me nuts, because I’m like, “Do you not think that perspective students see through this? Like, do you actually think they believe the words that this person is saying?” So, I think authenticity is really about honesty and creating content that’s really just genuine and unscripted.

I think it’s not like you can’t be authentic with a script, but I think it’s just tough to be believable. And I think authenticity really just comes down to, like, realness. Who are the people, really? What do they really believe? What do they really think? What are their personalities? Let’s bring their personality out a lot.

And that’s one thing that I like to do when I’m, you know, working with any subject, is, like, what is their personality? And how can we infuse some life and bring out some fun or, like, whatever, like, some, add some fun personality into the video? Like, I worked with this school recently where they have a partnership with the Detroit Police Department and Michigan State Police where they provide classes and education to law enforcement. And there’s this married couple that we were interviewing. And they had such a fun banter between them. And we really played on that. Like, the wife decided to go back to school, even though she had this busy law enforcement job. And she, basically, like, voluntold the husband that, “Hey, we’re going to do this together.” And so, it was, like, this funny moment in the video where they’re just cracking up about, like, marriage, you know, marriage culture of, like, “She just voluntold me that I’m going to go back to school.”

Just a small moment of personality in those videos can make a big difference. And that’s just, it’s like a slice of life. It’s not just someone on camera being like, “I liked the school. Five stars. It was great. The professors were great.” Like, it’s like, okay, but, like, who is this person, really? How can we get some personality to come out? And I think that it’s hard to do that with scripted content. And it’s like I’ve worked on videos in the past that I had no say in the creative direction, but, you know, sometimes you just film stuff. But it’s like the student, like, walking down the hallway and, like, looking into the camera and, like, saying something inspiring, and I’m like, “She’s not…” I’m like, “That’s not real. Like, why are you walking? Why are you walking by the pond and saying some really, you know, inspiring thing?” So, that’s what I think. I look at that. I’m like, “This is not real. That’s not believable.”

[00:16:17] Gil: I think there’s a difference between scripted and outlined, right? Like, you give a student, “Here are the types of things we’re going to be asking you,” not, “Here are the questions, and give me the answers,” right? And I feel like there’s a certain approach there. That’s why live content is meaningful, but live is just really hard to execute effectively, because then you have long drawls of silence or you have awkward things that you don’t want as part. Like you said, I think that people forget when they’re pre-recording content, that they’re not live sometimes. And that’s why they lock up or they get nervous or they just have quick one-word answers and they don’t expand on it and these are all things that you can fix in post-production. But when you’re doing a live program, it’s literally impossible to account for those sorts of things.

And there’s the tech glitches, right, of, like, the computer can freeze, the internet can go down. I remember, this was pre-COVID, I was getting ready to do a webinar. And probably, two hours before the webinar happened, the power went out in my side of town because this crazy windstorm came through. And I’m like, “Crap, what am I going to do, right? We’ve got hundreds of people signed up for this webinar.” And I’m driving around town trying to find anywhere with Wi-Fi. I ended up at the Panera Bread, because as a former college admissions officer, I’m like, “Panera Bread is my place to go because I know there’s going to be internet and I can grab a cup of coffee and it’s fine.”

Every work-from-home person in the town, in both towns around it, was at the Panera Bread all at the same time. And, like, I’m on with my production helper doing AV checks. And she’s like, “I literally hear everything that’s happening at the Panera Bread and I don’t hear you right now.” And so, as I was driving around, I was, like, briefing one of our sales people at the company on the content of the presentation as I’m driving around trying to find these places, just in case can’t get anywhere.

That’s a lot of stress for something that we could have easily recorded and sent as an on-demand piece of content or marketed as live content and made it available at a specific time. And that gets into all the different questions about strategy for uses of video, right? And so, a lot of people, like, the mindset as well, the videos have to be short and quick and concise, you have three seconds to get their attention; otherwise, you lose them, right? So, what are some thoughts on, kind of, best practices for leveraging video content?

I look at things like these longer form five-minute videos about the institution or even full-length TV episodes videos that institutions are using now, right? And I don’t know any student who’s going to sit down and watch a 30-minute episode about University of Toledo. Love you at University of Toledo. I have friends that work there. And that’s why I use them as my joke school name here. But, like, 30 minutes about a school versus 30 seconds about a school, but the 30 seconds can’t be a commercial. That has to be an authentic voice. How do you balance that with the different ways that institutions should be leveraging content for, you mentioned before, TikTok and Reels and Instagram, and you’ve got content on YouTube, content on your website. Where do all those things fit?

[00:19:07] John: Yeah. I think, you know, we need to keep a marketing funnel in mind where you have top of funnel stuff, which is just more engaging, usually shorter, people aren’t really aware of your college or really trying to develop a short list of colleges that they want to go to. So, that’s just an opportunity to engage people at a very broad level. And that’s where you really need to be concise. It’s very presumptuous to assume that somebody that is not in your orbit yet will watch a 30-minute video, like, a 30-minute, like, campus tour or something like that. It’s just it’s probably not going to happen. They will probably won’t even watch, like, the stuff that we do, which is, like, these three-to-four-minute stories of someone’s success. That’s really more for people who have become a lead. They’re, sort of, mid or bottom funnel. They’re now interested. They’re considering what school to go to. And now, you have their attention a little more.

Or, at an event, I feel like it all just matters with context. Like, I think there’s very few meetings that I sit in with new video clients that don’t involve some sort of like, “Oh, this has to be short, because people’s short attention spans and stuff like that.” And I’m, kind of, like, it depends. Like, if we’re showing this video at an event or a webinar or something like that, people have nowhere else to be. You don’t have to have, like, some as catchy of a hook in that three seconds, because what are they going to do? Like, they’re at an event. Get up? “They didn’t get me in the three seconds. So, I’m going to go on Facebook for the rest of this video.” They have nowhere else to be.

So, I feel like you can get away with longer form content like that, but I think that TikTok’s where it’s like, if you’re on TikTok and you’re like, “Oh, hi, I’m the president of such and such. Just thought I’d come on here and make a video.” I’ve never seen one of those videos, just a bad example. I’m just, like, anytime I’m, like, on TikTok or reels and someone starts their video with, “Hey, guys,” I’m like, “Next.”

So, so, it’s, it’s just the context really matters. But I do think that, like, I think we need all of it. I think that colleges and universities, they should have some flagship content that’s a little longer form. So, maybe that’s, you know, student stories. In a perfect world, the colleges would have at least one or two stories to illustrate each program that they’re trying to promote. “Show me some students that have experienced this. Let me experience the program through the eyes or through the lens of a student or alumni.”

They should also have some informational video for the people that just want information. They don’t want… look, if I just want information about a program, I don’t want to hear a story. It’s like, if my plumbing is sprung a leak and I’ve got water spraying everywhere and I go find, like, who’s… who in my area can come fix this emergency, I don’t want to hear about your grandfather started the plumbing company and all this stuff. Like, it’s just not…

So, you do need the stories, you need the informational stuff, like program overviews, stuff like that, you do need a longer campus tour for someone that is at that stage where they, maybe, aren’t going to fly out to your school, but they do want to see, like, what it’s like. But you need the shorter stuff. You should be engaging in short form content. And that’s a little more entertaining, less salesy.

So, I really just think that, like, I know resources aren’t unlimited, but colleges should be thinking about different types of videos at all stages of the funnel and having a little something for everybody, based on where those students find themselves.

[00:22:36] Gil: Yeah, I think that that’s why campus’ video content comes across so cringe, sometimes, is we try to use that one piece for all things. And that piece for all things doesn’t work on all these different mediums. So, you have to have a different strategy, just like you don’t present the same information at your open house that you do at a high school visit, right? When you go visit a high school, you have 15, 20 minutes of time where you’ve got to get all the information out, make it impactful, and provide some value. Whereas, at an open house, like you said, they are a captive audience and you have the opportunity to really wow and inspire them a little bit because you’re a part of this bigger group.

And yeah, different folks are going to have different strengths in those areas. Like I mentioned before, like, we, I worked at an institution where the VP of enrollment was super engaging when you could put them on a stage at an open house, right? You’ve got the entire auditorium or the entire gym filled with families and students cracking jokes, getting feedback from the crowd. And then you put them in front of a microphone to record a podcast, ooh, that was hard. They’re sweating bullets. And it’s like recording a podcast, especially when it was back in the day when it was just audio versions and there wasn’t, there was no video of it, that’s the lowest barrier for making sure that you can make them sound smart because you can say whatever you want, cut out whatever you don’t want to use, right? And there’s no bad cuts as far as, like, video feed, right?

But people have their strengths and there are some folks where you put them in a small room with two or three families, they’re great — they’re approachable, they’re awesome. But you put them on the stage at the open house and they freeze up because of stage fright, right.

And so, video has the same type of you have to have the same type of mindset when it comes to a video strategy, that different people are going to work at different phases of the funnel, and different content platforms are going to work at different phases of the process. And like I said, resources aren’t unlimited, but you got to figure out what works, where, and do that really well, versus trying to be everywhere with the same content that makes it not work. 

[00:24:38] John: Yeah. And I think one thing I’m really tired of, and, you know, when you say cringe, like, or this previous guest that you had that said, call just to stop doing videos because they’re so cringe, I think we had to qualify that and be like, what do you mean by cringe? I mean, what I view as, it may be “cringe” isn’t the right word, but just, like, eye roll, if you want me to roll my eyes, send me to almost any college’s YouTube page and have that video autoplay at the top. And it’s the same video as everyone else. It’s some pseudo inspiring, poetic, deep male voiceover with some emotive music. And it opens with a drone shot. And it’s like, “Ah, just stop.”

Yeah. I’m always just, like, I go to some college’s YouTube page, the first thing I have to do is, like, stop, like, pause. I don’t care about that. I want to see, like, the real stuff. And I think that’s, like, that’s the difference. I feel like this is, like, the video at the top of every college’s YouTube page is often, like, the really inauthentic thing.

And it’s not like that you shouldn’t have something like that. You should have a commercial, you know. And that’s, kind of, a commercial approach. But, like, doing some research to realize that, like, all of you sound the same. I’m in a special position where I have a vested interest in knowing what other colleges are doing with video and keeping up on trends and stuff like that. And so, maybe other colleges don’t see as many higher ed videos as me, but I just get so sick of that. It’s like they all hired the same company.

[00:26:04] Gil: Yeah.

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[00:26:58] John: I always find it really refreshing when colleges swap out that top-featured video to, like, have stuff with more personality.

So, University of Oregon, one of my favorite colleges to follow for video content, I just think they do such a great job. And they just get it, you know. And one time I went to their YouTube page, and it was this video of a cartoon duck – because their mascot’s a duck – just laying in bed, like, studying or something like that. And it was just, all it was just, sort of, this, like, these beats, it was study music. It was, like, three-hour long video of, like, of just music that you can have in the background to, like, study with. And it was just this duck, kind of, like, just not really doing much, but he’s just studying and he’s just there. And I was like, “That’s great. That’s fun.” If I was a prospective student and I went on there, I’m like, “Oh, that’s cool. That’s different. It’s just something different up there at the featured video.”

So, yeah, I think we do, often, it’s like there’s this college video template of saying, “Okay, well, we’re going to do a video. We need to start with this. Like, we need to get a fancy script written and we need to really try to find out what makes us different and how do we say that really eloquently and what soundtrack can we put underneath that to make that sound believable.” And not to say that those videos are bad. It’s just like I don’t feel like they’re very helpful.

[00:28:13] Gil: Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:14] John: I don’t know who’s watching that and going, “Oh, God, let me fill out an application.”

[00:28:19] Gil: Yeah. Well, I think it’s funny you say it, because, like, the goal is, how do we make this sound believable, versus, how do we say things that are believable, right? Like, is there a difference in that mindset where, when you’re doing all that prep work, maybe your message isn’t that refined if you have to do all that type of scripting and wordsmithing versus just having an authentic voice and an authentic experience, right?

And I feel like the Oregon example, and we’ll put a link to their YouTube channel in the episode notes for easy access — free promo for University of Oregon, you’re welcome — that shows the personality of the institution, right, and makes them more approachable, which when you’re talking about new student recruitment, specifically, that’s a big deal, right? Because it gets those students engaged with the brand in a way that the 30-second voiceover drone shot commercial isn’t going to do, right? And obviously, we can talk a lot about how, and where, and when to interact with alumni and parents, all those sorts of things. But there’s, we can do an episodic series of podcasts, folks, and I think you have a podcast would probably have some resources and knowledge around that as well.

I wanted to ask you one question about, I’ll call it trend-chasing, right? There’s always the, kind of, like, the viral approaches and things that come, like, in TikTok videos and all those sorts of things. One of my favorite ones is, like, the, you know, the walking and talking. “I’m an Oregon duck. Of course, I go to blah, blah, blah. I’m an Oregon duck. Of course, I do blah, blah, blah.” Like, that’s one video that I still see pop up for every now and again. From your perspective, I feel like that’s one of those opportunities for authentic, quickly produced content that is going to get out there and be impactful. But, you know, what is the balance versus, like, overdoing it? And I think that’s where I think colleges live in this different category versus, like, a brand, right, a corporate brand trying to do that sort of stuff, kind of, ruins it. Whereas, a college, kind of, lives in this category where it can still be fun, right? Because it’s the students doing whatever that is. And you just use your tour guides, use your campus ambassadors to do what they’re already doing, just in the guise of promoting the institution. So, how can institutions play in that space of chasing the trend without becoming like Coca-Cola chasing the trend or Amazon chasing the trend where then everybody’s like, “Oh, this is cringe, right?” And so, how do we avoid it but still embrace it?

[00:30:40] John: I think that, like, yes, I think every college should be keeping track of trends on short form video platforms because that’s where trends really help things take off, is when you’re engaging with a… using a trending sound, you’re doing one of these, of course, videos, like, “Of course, I blah, blah, blah,” or whatever. There’s so many trends that come about. And being a consumer of these platforms, I think, is really important, or at the very least, follow a few schools that are following the trends. So, Bowling Green State University, for example, Brianna Blackburn’s their social media manager. She’s coming on my podcast next week, so I’m fresh off of, you know, talking to her. And I just love their stuff. I just think they do such a great job of, like, following trends, being authentic, not being cringy. I think Moody College of Communication at University of Texas, Austin, they do a great job. Those are some examples you can follow, keep track of trends.

But what I think you need to do is, at the very least, run your ideas, what you think is funny, by the target demographic that’s going to… so, like, I think, TikTok and Reels and stuff should be primarily handled by younger interns, student ambassadors, that kind of thing, or at least have them heavily involved, because I’ve seen examples of colleges, like, try to jump on a trend, but it’s like, “Nah, that’s not like… that’s not how you do that.” It’s just like, struggling to think of an example of one I saw was, like, some celebrity dancing or something like that. It was, like, one of those little memes or whatever. And they were like when the application season is open or something like that, and the guy’s, like, dancing and he’s really excited, I’m like, “Who’s that excited about?” Like, no, that’s not, like, really culturally niche. It’s just, sort of, like, it was a good try.

[00:32:31] Gil: At least they try.

[00:32:33] John: Yeah. But that’s where I see, like, people that aren’t from the culture trying to create things from the culture. And I experiment with TikToks and stuff to market my podcast. One of the things I’ve been experimenting with is, like, trying to create content that resonates with higher ed marketers, using these memes and these trends and stuff like that. But one of the things I’m really cautious about is, like, I don’t work for a college. So, like, I don’t want to create something that’s, like, trying to be some insider joke that I don’t fully get.

And so, I’m very cautious about that’s what stops me is, like, I’ll come across, like, a meme or some sort of template on reels or TikTok, and I’m like, “Man, how could I, like, twist this into, like, a higher ed marketing scenario?” And I have probably 20 of these saved on my phone. And because I’m like, I don’t know, I can’t… I’m like, I’m not the guy. Sometimes, I’ll come up with one, but I’m like, I feel like I would be more successful at this if I actually, like, worked full time at a college and really understood, like, the bureaucracy and the ins and outs of all that stuff. So, I think you have to be careful. But definitely, following trends is important. So, it’s a balancing act.

[00:33:38] Gil: Yeah, I think the balancing act is, follow the trends, and if you can execute on it well, do it. If you are feeling a little wishy-washy, maybe put it together to get it out of your mind, but then realize, “Eh, maybe this one stays in the drafts,” right, is probably the best approach to think about when we’re putting together that kind of content, because, like I said, I think the students will tell you, especially if you’re going to ask students to do the video that is trending for you, right, like the, “I’m an Oregon duck. I do blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,” like, they’ll tell you if what you’re asking them to do doesn’t make any sense. And value that feedback versus trying to push it through and then make content that doesn’t represent your brand well, doesn’t represent the students well, and doesn’t resonate with your audience.

The good news is if that stuff’s not resonating, it’s not going to go viral. So, people aren’t going to see it anyway, right? And so, there’s a, there’s a certain element of, you try some things and if it works, it’s going to go well. Unless it’s really bad, then it will go viral because it’s really bad, right? And so, you don’t want to do that.

[00:34:36] John: Yeah, it’s very unlikely that something from higher ed is going to be so bad that it’s going to go viral for being bad. I mean…

[00:34:43] Gil: I would argue if it goes viral for being that bad it’s not necessarily the worst thing in the world and your institution.

[00:34:47] John: Right.

[00:34:48] Gil: But it is when the president sees it and the board of directors. And that’s to your point earlier from not having the intricacies of the politics of the institution, it might work for your audience. You might start to see more attention and more engagement, but then you get the wrong kind of engagement from upstairs. And it’s a challenge not unique to higher ed, but it’s hypersensitive piece, for sure.

[00:35:10] John: The bar is very low, I think. The risk is low, I should say, on the short-form video platforms, because yeah, you could try something. If it’s not interesting, it just won’t get pushed out that much and most people won’t see it. It’s very reliant on the algorithm. So, if it’s not interesting or if it’s cringy, it’s probably not going to go very far, anyway.

So, yeah, it’s such a great, I think, that colleges should be experimenting with video in that way, because it’s such low-hanging fruit, low barrier to entry, just pull out your phone and try something. Look at, what trends are viral and people are thinking are funny, and how can you twist that to your brand message to, maybe, like, some insider knowledge that only people that go to your school would resonate with? So, it’s… but yeah, the risk is low. And I think, yeah, I think all colleges should be experimenting and just seeing what works.

[00:36:00] Gil: I’m with you. All right. So, last request – for people who want to keep the conversation going with you, where are the best places? How and the best place to contact you? And plug your podcast. What should people be listening to you to keep this conversation going?

[00:36:13] John: Yeah. I mean, so I’m on LinkedIn. You can search, my name, John. It’s J-O-H-N. And my last name’s Azoni, A-Z-O-N-I. That’s where I am all day, every day. But I have a podcast called Higher Ed Storytelling University, where we talk about all things content creation for higher ed marcom leaders. And then I have a newsletter called Higher Ed Storyteller’s Digest, so, kind of, a theme here. So, that’s a weekly newsletter that goes out every Wednesday morning. You can sign up at my website, unveild.tv/newsletter. UNVEILD is spelled U-N-V-E-I-L-D. So, yeah, those are the primary places to find me.

[00:36:48] Gil: Awesome! Well, we will put links to all of those in the episode notes for our podcast listeners. And John, I appreciate your time, appreciate you being here today. And our listeners, we appreciate you. And we will see you all next time on FYI. Bye!

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