Blending AI with the Human Experience in Universities with Dave Marshall

Gil Rogers sits down with Mongoose’s founder and CEO, Dave Marshall, to discuss the impact AI will have on the human experience.

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Who is Dave Marshall?

Dave is the founder and CEO of Mongoose!

In this Episode

Dave Marshall, the Founder and CEO of Mongoose, joins FYI host Gil Rogers for a conversation about how the tides of technology are transforming higher education. Learn from Dave’s first-hand experience, as he shares invaluable insights from his pioneering days of online college applications to the current era, where AI and technology serve as catalysts for human connection, breaking down barriers and fostering a deep sense of belonging among students. 

Looking forward, Dave predicts that future technology will enable institutions to better understand and respond to students’ emotions, tailoring their communication strategies accordingly. Listen in on the conversation now.

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Episode Transcript

Blending AI with the Human Experience in Universities with Dave Marshall 

Publishing Date: February 20, 2024

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome back to FYI, the For Your Institution Podcast, presented by Mongoose. Today, I’m joined by founder and CEO of Mongoose, Dave Marshall. We’re going to revisit a conversation we had a few months back in our most downloaded episode of FYI, talking about AI and its impact on higher education. We’re going to have some even-keeled responses to some recent media coverage, as well as make some predictions for what the future holds. Let’s take a listen.

[00:00:34] Gil: Dave, welcome back to the pod.

[00:00:36] Dave: Gil, I got to tell you, I’m so happy to be here, and I’m excited for the conversation that we will have today.

[00:00:45] Gil: Awesome. Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to join us again. For those who are not familiar, shortly after I stepped into the host chair last year for FYI, we had an episode called AI and Academia. And that, kind of, blew up. It’s still, to this day, our number-one most downloaded episode of FYI since I stepped into the chair, or sat into the chair, I guess. Stepping into a chair doesn’t sound like a good idea. And Dave, you were obviously one of the guests in that conversation. But for those who may not have downloaded that episode, I’d love for you to, kind of, share your story a little bit, how you got to where you are, the vision behind Mongoose, and everything in between.

[00:01:23] Dave: Okay, Gil, sure. So, I was introduced to higher ed and the challenges that higher ed had when I was a student at the University of Dayton. And this is 1996, around there, just to give you a very clear date as to my age.

[00:01:39] Gil: Nobody’s counting.

[00:01:40] Dave: Sure. So, that was when the internet was, well, the internet was not new, but the web was new. And my roommate and I joked about the UD’s website was like text-based, and boy, schools should probably do a better job of presenting who they are. And so, we ended up pitching the head of PR at UD, and she was kind enough to introduce us to all other leaders at the institution. And that’s when I was introduced to the VP for enrollment. And his name was Chris Muñoz. Chris and I spoke most weekdays for the next six years. He was a mentor of mine and introduced me to enrollment management and enrollment marketing.

And my roommate and I built an admission site for UD, and students were able to personalize the website. And when they did that, we were able to update their CRM, which was EMIS, which is a Noel Levitz’ product before the R came in there. It was a VoxPro system. And so, that, that was pretty progressive for 1990, I guess, ‘97 now.

And so, we built one of the first, online applications for schools. And UD got a ton of press. And they were in the New York Times, they were in the Washington Post, they were in the Chronicle, that you could apply to college on the world wide web. And so, that, kind of, exposure, we’re very fortunate to get that. And so, I started my first ed tech software company and ended up working with a few hundred schools. And we help them build their websites, build the integrations to their CRMs and their ERPs, and help them really communicate better with prospective students, parents, current students, and alumni.

So, I was hooked, and I’ve spent the rest of my career helping students and higher ed have a better relationship.

[00:03:55] Gil: Wow. It’s interesting because it’s fun how 1996… I like to believe that I’m a huge Colorado Rockies fan because I grew up in Colorado and they started in 1993. And in my mind, 1993 is perpetually 15 years ago. It doesn’t matter how many years, it’s perpetually 15 years. So, we’ll say, in the 15 years ago realm, a lot has changed, but a lot has stayed the same, right? There’s still institutions struggling with making sure that their website is better supporting prospective students. Sure, there might be more images on it, it’s less text-based and more image-based, but we still struggle with content. There’s still a desire for better integrations between places where students are engaging and the CRM, right?

And so, in a lot of ways, you are on the forefront of these things. And there’s, there’s still a lot that needs to be done. And it feels like it’s never ending, right? There’s always ways that we can be better and do better.

I know that one of the things we spoke about on the original podcast, the AI and Academia episode… and for our listeners, we’ll put a link to that past episode in our episode notes. But had that conversation in the height of the AI hysteria, where it seemed like every other day there was a new pundit with a new prediction about how AI was going to change everything, and people were concerned about losing their jobs, and there was concern. That still permeates to some extent, but I do remember that one of your main predictions was that things aren’t going to change overnight, right? It’s not like, because… and I think, maybe, it comes a little bit from that experience of having been in this space, especially in the ed tech side of higher education for so long, you and I both know that change is more incremental than anything else. And it might move a little more rapidly, but it’s not like everyone in admissions has lost their jobs because the robots came in and started processing all the applications, right?

So, now that we’re six, nine months into this conversation, which seems like a decade ago at this point, what are your thoughts on the way things are going right now and the conversations that you’re having with the team at Mongoose for how AI is impacting your work, but also how it’s impacting the work of college and university partners?

[00:06:05] Dave: So, I think that the atmosphere is much calmer now. We’ve been able to, to some extent, come to, you know, peace with, “Oh, there’s these exciting new tools that we can use, let’s be thoughtful about how we can use them.” And the term, “AI,” is just so, so broad. We could say we’ve been doing AI for 20 years now. You could say AI didn’t really come out until ChatGPT showed the world that it was here. The answer is in between there.

And so, I can tell you that the conversations that we’ve been having with our partner institutions, what’s been appealing to them has been this concept of having a chatbot that is trained on being an expert on their institution and being an expert on the nuances of financial aid and being an expert on knowing what transfer students are dealing with compared to adult and online, compared to undergrad, right? And that’s pretty incredible that you could have such a helpful artificial intelligence, piece of technology, communicate to your audiences in an extremely accurate and compelling way.

And, oh, by the way, whatever language the student starts to type in, the bot will talk to them back in that language fluently, which is just incredible. And I’m not saying… this is not a flex or a brag from Mongoose. This is a commodity now. I mean, that it’s so accessible, and that’s why it’s so exciting that you don’t need data scientists and a whole team of people to do this. You need to be thoughtful about how you do it and the impact of how much it could help reduce the friction of students and parents learning about institutions and students’ experiences while they’re there. You no longer have to be dependent on if there’s staff available to talk, if there’s staff turnover, that’s a problem.

Higher ed, for four years, has had beautiful missions. They want to make education accessible to everybody. And that is such a beautiful goal. And AI and technology is the most, gosh, transformational, game-changing, disruptive, if you will, technology to help towards that end, which is such a beautiful end, maybe more than the internet itself. And I want to back up these bold statements because I have seen them to be true and I know they’re true.

[00:08:47] Gil: Yeah, and let’s talk about that a little bit. I want to roll it back to the perception with higher ed. It’s interesting, because I know… I don’t know about you, but I always hear from people that we don’t have enough time in our day, we don’t have enough resources. We need help to, to get everything done.

And then, all of a sudden, nine months ago, we have this resource that comes along that could presumably help with a lot of that, right? Like you said, a chatbot that’s online 24/7/365 and is able to handle the redundant questions that an admissions counselor might normally get, right? Let’s use that as an example. That’s not replacing an admissions counselor, right? That’s making it so that the admissions counselor, one, may be retained at a higher rate because they’re not getting burned out by having to deal with answering the same questions over and over again. And two, it makes them more readily available to better support students who are in their face on campus, greet parents and families, and be… we talk about how, during COVID, the challenge that a lot of admissions officers had was, we hired these people to be people, and now, because of everything that’s going on in the world, they’re stuck in their house, doing information sessions and meeting with families on Zoom, which nobody liked, but they did out of a necessity.

So, now, what technology can enable… I’m going to throw this thought process at you and let me know how off-base or on-base I am. If the technology can enable you to free up your time to do the work that a human can do that a robot can’t, why not let the robot be a part of your team, right, and find ways to identify efficiencies. And a big part of that would be the accessibility of answers to the most frequently asked questions. Is that far-fetched? Is that a crazy idea? Or, is that, kind of, primary numero uno, what people should be thinking about?

[00:10:35] Dave: Preserving staff time for what humans do best is the name of the game, right? It is staff burnout is real. Humans, we need things like connection and food and sleep and all of these things that, that we actually need, that, that make us so effective when communicating with other humans.

And I haven’t met a client, yet, or a prospective client, yet, that had staff that felt this wasn’t a wonderful thing, because they can preserve their time, having genuine conversations and having empathy, while the technology can just make that ultra-efficient. And that is a game-changer. That means less turnover. That means better conversations. That means more empathy. And that’s a pretty, pretty significant thing to get excited about.

[00:11:32] Gil: Yeah, and I think that’s a great point, and it brings about the humanization of the process that I think, prior to ChatGPT, automation was removing from the process, right? Dear first name is emails and turn out letters, and that’s our… we can check the box that, okay, we’ve got a communication plan because we’ve got emails and letters that are going out. And now, this, kind of, creates an opportunity, by leveraging technology, allow the human to get back involved in the process a little bit more, right, and, and be there for students in the process.

So, we’re going to take a quick break. And when we come back, we’re going to dive a little bit deeper into that point about empathy and the human connection, because I think that’s something that a lot of people may forget about just in the hustle and bustle of the 24-hour news cycle around AI and ChatGPT and all of these new technology and resources. It’s not just about the technology, it’s about the, the human connection, right? So, we will take a pause, and we will be right back.

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[00:13:17] Gil: All right, we are back on FYI, the For Your Institution Podcast, presented by Mongoose. And we are being joined today by Dave Marshall, who is the founder and CEO of Mongoose. Just as a quick recap of our past segment, when I first sat in the host chair of FYI, one of the first episodes we did was called AI and Academia. And it was, still to this date, one of the most downloaded episodes of our podcast. And I think a big part of that was, at the time, of that release, that was the height of the hysteria around AI and how it was going to take everybody’s jobs and make everybody rethink the way everything works. And Dave had some really great predictions back then about the rate in which change will be impacting higher education. But towards the end of the last segment, we really touched on, on something that I think is, oftentimes, forgotten in the conversation when it comes to technology as a whole, not just AI, but just CRM platforms and websites and everything else.

And that has to do with the human element, the human connection, that, that people strive for. And I had… a number of weeks ago, we had Paul LeBlanc, who is the president of Southern New Hampshire University, or was at the time. By the time this episode drops, he will have probably retired and now gone on to his next thing. However, in that conversation, he talked about the impact of, really, that human connection, and even for, the one of the largest online education providers in the country, the people who come to campus are looking for a truly human connection. And during the height of the COVID-19 pandemic, we had challenges with making those connections. And we’re getting back into that. But now, at the same time, we have this new technology that can presumably facilitate a lot of these connections, right?

And so, Dave, it’s a long way to get to what we’re, what you were mentioning before around that, that yearning for the human connection. And I know this is a topic that you’re very passionate about in a world that is filled with technology that some people think are replacing those human connections. I would argue that the, the way we should look at it is technology should help to facilitate those connections and to make them more meaningful. And we’ve got to find ways to do that, right? And so, I’d love your reaction to that commentary and what the way you feel institutions might rethink the place technology, as a whole, can play with facilitating those types of connections.

[00:15:42] Dave: Gil, there’s some irony that technology can allow us to be even more human. And if we think about relationships that any of our listeners have, you’re in a text conversation with a friend or family member, that’s personal. You might even say things that you would never say, or you wouldn’t… you might have a little anxiety if you were right in front of them. And it just facilitates such a beautiful safe environment to have vulnerable conversations, to have important conversations.

And when it comes to students feeling that sense of belonging, right, and having someone that, that they can speak to, that, that they feel is an advocate for them, or they know that they could reach out… I have a story for you. So, one of our clients is a large four-year public research institution. And they use our product for orientation as one of the teams. And they hired a student worker to have, have text conversations with, first, all of the perspective students, and then accepted students, and then enrolled students.

And then they came to orientation. And this is a pretty large group. And they came to orientation on campus. And our client wanted to introduce the student that had been communicating with all of these students and families for months now. And I forget his name, let’s say it’s Tom. And so, Tom comes up, and everybody stood up and cheered, because they had built a connection with this student worker, that they had questions in a vulnerable part of their life right now. Like, this is a big decision. And am I going to have friends? Am I going to be accepted?

And this student was probably a wonderful communicator, too, right? And it just shows how sure they were using a software application or the student was. The students themselves were just texting. And it allowed that institution and that student worker, let’s call him Tom, to have empathy at scale, which is just an incredible opportunity, when we’re dealing with a time where the lack of connection and the nature of higher ed and how complicated that it can be for students, having a lifeline that you’re able to have genuine conversations with, is just an incredible opportunity.

[00:18:27] Gil: Yeah, and I, I want to go back to what you mentioned before, because I know I’ve heard you speak on this topic, and I think it’s worth a, a revisit for our listeners, is the difference between fitting in and belonging, right?

[00:18:41] Dave: Sure.

[00:18:41] Gil: I think that there’s an important distinction there that so many people think, “Oh, well, we, we create an environment where you can fit in.” It’s like, well, there’s a difference between that. And I’d love for you to dive in to what that distinction is for folks. And then, if we’re so bold, how some of the, the use of technology might be able to enable students to feel that way. And you touched a little bit on it with how, you know, you can break down barriers of communication and how people feel and saying things that you might not normally feel comfortable saying. But I’ll defer to you on the commentary around that difference between fitting in and belonging and how technology might enable students to accomplish that sense of belonging.

[00:19:24] Dave: I think fitting in is often like top of the funnel. You see pictures of students that might look like you. You’re reading about student’ spotlights that might look like you. There’s programs. So, you hypothesize that, “Yeah, I think I might fit, fit here.” And that, in of itself, is a really key step, because we want to make sure everyone thinks that they would fit it, right? We want to, not just have a subset of the population think that they would fit in, because then you’re ignoring a whole other group, so, or groups.

But once you get past that step, belonging is a whole other energy. It’s a whole nother… it’s no longer a guess. You feel it, and you feel it viscerally. And you can’t fake that. That’s the outcome of connection. And so, the more that you’re able to do that at scale, the better it’s going to be for the student, the better it’s going to be for the institution, and ultimately, society, that you’re going to have more students that gain access to education, that are able to successfully navigate the challenges and have more of a chance to be successful after.

And so, when I think about… like, a really good use case would be if, one of our clients is having a either text or chat conversation with a student, and you spoke about, like, personalization used to be, “Hi, first name,” right?

[00:21:04] Gil: Yup.

[00:21:04] Dave: And now, with technology and with AI, a human could be having a conversation with a human. And when the staff member was about to respond, the technology can then say, “Hey, you’re responding in a way that you might have missed. This is actually a transfer student. And you might’ve missed that they were previously having challenges like this. So, you might want to address that.” “And, oh, wow, that’s a really good point.” And so, then, you’re not talking at somebody. You’re talking to them and with them. And you know that you’re… that there’s a perceived level of caring. Let’s hope it’s real, right? Most staff in higher ed genuinely care.

So… and that’s just an incredible use of technology—to build trust to build connection that wasn’t possible, was really hard to build a year ago. And now, we can just do that.

[00:21:56] Gil: Yeah, point one, I’ve got to make t-shirts now that say belonging is the outcome of connection, because I think that’s an amazing quote. Part two is that the last point you just made is the antithesis of technology isn’t going to replace the admissions counselor. All it’s going to do is enhance their ability to better serve students, right? That example you just gave of making suggestions, it’s like typing in Grammarly and then saying, “Hey, this is… this doesn’t really make a lot of sense, reword this,” right? It’s the same concept but tied to that individual interaction, that individual student to, make sure that we are truly tailoring our response.

The bot isn’t necessarily sending that response. It’s helping you make your response better, because it’s deeper in the funnel than what the bot would be enabled to really support. But it’s, it’s going to help you to, to be more thoughtful and help you to make a better connection, thus, leading to that student having a better sense of belonging. So, that’s great.

So, I think, I think what we’ll do is we’ll pause for one more break, and then when we come back, I want to pick your brain on, all right, when we get back together in six months or nine months, what’s the narrative going to be then, right? And I think, you know, we had a pretty good batting average on the past one when we had that conversation.

So, no pressure, but Mr. 3000 will be coming up to the plate to share predictions for the next six to 12 months, or how AI is going to continue to evolve and become more and more integrated into the work that we do. And so, we’ll take a break. We’ll be right back.

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[00:24:26] Gil: All right, welcome back to FYI, the For Your Institution Podcast, presented by Mongoose. I’m your host, Gil Rogers. And for this last segment, we have Dave Marshall, founder and CEO of Mongoose, who’s got some predictions for us. So, we’ve spent a good amount of time today talking about how AI and technology, in general, enables us to build better connections and build a sense of belonging for students who are coming to our campuses or who are currently enrolled at our campuses.

And so, before the break, I asked Dave, when we get back together in six to 12 months, what is the… what’s the narrative going to look like? What are the recommendations going to be? Where are we going to be when it comes to the interactions that AI is being a part of or facilitating? And how is technology continuing to craft and support the way that we’re supporting students at our institutions?

So, Dave, I will turn the mic to you.

[00:25:23] Dave: Okay. So, I think we can see the direction that a lot of software applications, whether you use Outlook or Gmail in your CRM, there’s some standard things that you’re seeing, like use AI to summarize a conversation, you use AI to recommend a response. So, those are generative AI opportunities to make us better communicators, to make us understand faster, and things like that. So, that’s not super bold because, like, we’re seeing that now, right? And I think that we’re going to continue to see more and more of that.

What I predict, and I heard a great quote a month ago, if you want to know the future, create it. I love that. It’s just a very empowering quote. And I predict that you’re going to see colleges be able to look at a mass set of conversations that are done by text, done by chat, done on the phone, done by email. And this is outside of just Mongoose here. This is that we’re able to look at conversations, and AI and the model that we train to be a helpful tool is going to be able to say, “Okay, here’s what’s happening with all of your various cohorts. This cohort’s feeling this emotion and this cohort’s feeling that one. And the reason that they’re feeling it is because of this.” So, imagine if you’re able to… colleges are going to be able to, and some are now, be able to detect the emotions of prospective and current students and be able to extract the topics that are related there.

We all know how higher ed is riddled with, like, misperceptions, and that causes frustration and that causes anxiety and that causes confusion. And to get that insight into when those emotions are arising and why, and oh, by the way, so that’s, like, the discovery of what’s happening, you’ll be able to look in and say, “Oh, that’s what’s happening.” Oh, by the way, there’s very high-touch tools that you can just reach out to them or automate it. Like, “We see that you might have been frustrated regarding this. I’m here to help you with this A, B, C, and D.” That was not even a dream a year ago. And now, it’s just very accessible, very pragmatic. And that’s what you’re going to see.

[00:27:58] Gil: Yeah, I think, in a world where, again, automation has killed personalization, in a lot of ways, right, we know when we’ve had this conversation on this podcast with many guests numerous times, that personalization is really about changing the interaction based on what that student’s needs or emotions or challenges that they’re facing, not that their name is Chuck and that they are interested in the marine biology program, right? Like, that’s table stakes that you put their first name in the email and you know what they’re interested in, right?

And so, I think that, if we think about traditional communication flows, right, traditional communication flow is, we send an email, do they open it, do they not open it? If they did, we do this. If they didn’t, we do this, right? And if they click the link in the email, we do that. And so, I think there’s a certain element of, what happened? What kind of automation can we have to make recommendations for people to reach out when they reply with a certain tone or they reply with a certain challenge or they reply negatively or affirmatively?

And I think that’s a great opportunity that we haven’t even really started diving deeply into at scale for… I’m sure there are institutions that are thinking that way and they’re working on it. But there’s an opportunity for more to do that. And that’s where we get to the point where we, we move away from the mass marketing approach that everybody does, which then floods every student’s inbox with 100 emails from schools that they aren’t interested in talking to, to an environment where they’re engaging with institutions in a way that is actually adding value to the conversation and building better connections, which leads to them feeling that sense of belonging with the institutions that do it right, right?

And if you’re, and you can, if you apply this effort to student, to your entire approach, now, you’ve got a great opportunity to stand out and not be the same, the look-a-like school to every other school that’s sending the same message to every student, because that’s what the comm flow was built to do. So, I love that. And I think that’s a great opportunity for institutions to think differently when it comes to how AI is going to, again, facilitate those types of connections.

[00:30:01] Dave: That’s right. And I think that you’re going to see schools use communication strategies that encourage more open-ended responses. How are you feeling? In the past, it’s been easy to, kind of, shy away from that, just because it’s almost impossible to manage at scale. Like, “Oh, my gosh, now, we have all these students that are telling me that they have these needs and I can’t keep up with it. And what did I do?” But now that we can provide empathy at scale and understanding at scale, that’s a great step.

And, like, right after that is a great opportunity for automation. So, like, they’re frustrated because they can’t get their transcript, right? And you’re able to identify that. You see what they want to do. “How about I automate that for you? What’s your first name? What’s your last name? What’s your student ID? Do you want it now? Do you want it at the end of the semester? Do you want it… or, you need to pay your bill. I can help you with that right here.”

So, that automation, that, call it cold, I don’t know, call it useful, transactional piece comes after, after you’ve validated, like, “This is how you’re feeling, and I’m able to see it. And this is why. Now, I can help you efficiently get that done.”

[00:31:08] Gil: Yeah, yeah. And I think that’s a, I mean, again, back to the beginning of the conversation where it’s not replacing the job of the admissions officer or the financial aid officer or the orientation leader, all it’s doing is making them more available for facilitating human connections. And I don’t think any institution in the country is saying, “Yeah, we’ve got nothing but time. Just go ahead, and, like, let us just work with every student,” right?

Like, we need to identify ways. And I know we spent a lot of time talking about the impact on the student and the… because they should be at the forefront of every conversation, but maybe we’ll reserve some time for next time to also talk about the benefits and mental health benefits and the efficiency benefits and everything for the staff at the institutions. Because I’m going to put my prediction out there. Twelve months from now, there’s still going to be challenges. Or, nine months from now, there’s still going to be challenges with managing their time and turnover and making sure that the people who are, you know, they’re… we’re talking about mission-driven people who are there because they’ve truly feel like they’re helping students and they want to help students and they are helping students. If we can help them to be more efficient and effective with their time, they can do that without the expense of their mental health, right?

And so, I think that’s another… that’ll be our follow-on conversation. Maybe, we’ll do that one in three months, and then we’ll… that’ll be our bridge.

[00:32:24] Dave: I would love to have that conversation, and I would love to share some insights that we’re seeing. And it’s all happening in real time, you know. And what an exciting time to be alive and to see this classic, like, almost not changing kind of friction of, of access to education and struggles through the process and how to be successful and all of these super caring, empathetic staff members that want to help and they’re frustrated because they can’t, and they’re overwhelmed, and the students have misperceptions and they’re frustrated. And now, we’re at a time where we can actually see significant improvement there. I’m excited to talk to you in three months. And in 12 months, boy, it’ll be fun to look back and then try to look forward then, too.

[00:33:09] Gil: Yep, absolutely. Well, consider it done. Word to the wise, to our listening and viewing audience, I have access to Dave’s calendar, so I can… I’m going to grab this time and we’re going to…

[00:33:19] Dave: This is a truth. This is a truth. And I’ve had to reschedule this twice. I feel like such a jerk. So, Gil’s gotten really good at access to my calendar.

[00:33:27] Gil: There we go. So, I’ll make it happen. Well, thank you, Dave, for making the time. And we are looking forward to continuing this dialogue on a regular basis for our listeners. All of the resources and information that we’ve mentioned will be in the episode notes.

And we will see you next time on FYI.

[00:33:45] Dave: Thanks, Gil.[00:33:47] Gil: Bye.

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